Interview

Interviewed June 2003

 

Edited and rearranged transcript

(Note- This interview is part of a DMA project titled, ‘Women as professional horn players in the United States, 1900-2005,’ by Ellie Jenkins, completed in 2005. For more information about the project as a whole, contact Ellie Jenkins at elliejenkins@earthlink.net.  My interview occured in June 2003 at the IHS Workshop in Bloomington, Indiana.  Several details about my personal/work situation have changed, but it still makes for some good reading.  JR)

 

EJ: Where are you from?

            JR: I was born in Cedar Rapids, IA. I lived there for five years, and my family moved to Cannon Falls, MN, which is a small town about an hour south of the Twin Cities.

 

EJ: When you were growing up did you go into the Twin Cities to take lessons?

            JR: No, I took lessons at Carleton College (in Northfield, MN).

 

EJ: Who was your horn teacher there?

            JR: Her name was Gwen Anderson. I think she’s got a kind of dual career going. She does some freelance gigs in the Twin Cities, but primarily right now she’s a computer programmer. Back when I was taking lessons from her she was teacher at Carleton and a hand-weaver, so she’s always had a dual career.

 

EJ: How did you wind up playing horn?

            JR: Fifth grade. The band director sent out a letter [saying], “If you want to play a musical instrument, fill out this form. Which one would you like to play? What’s your second choice?” I said my first choice was horn, and my second choice was flute. I just thought it was the most gorgeous instrument. Beautiful looking – I had no idea what it sounded like. I just thought it was the prettiest thing. And I could make a sound on that, but I couldn’t make a sound on the flute, so there I was.

 

EJ: Do you play any other instruments?

            JR: I started to learn piano my senior year of high school, but that didn’t stick – just enough to get my requirements.

 

EJ: When did you start thinking about playing horn as a career?

            JR: Eighth grade. I knew up to that point [that I could do it]. But then I started practicing more and more. And I was hearing, “Oh, you know you shouldn’t go into music because it’s such hard work. You have to be working three or four hours a day – practice, practice, practice.” So eighth grade was when I made the decision, “I’m willing to do that. I’m willing to do that work. I’m going to go for it.”

 

EJ: So from that point on…

            JR: That’s all I wanted to do.

 

EJ: That’s impressive for an eighth grader.

            JR: I was a strange eighth grader! (laughs)

 

EJ: Before you made the decision to play in eight grade, what were your other interests?

            JR: Up to that point it was either that, or science. I was really thinking physics or engineering. And then I was sitting in class and just said to myself, “Geesh, I don’t want to do this. I just have so much fun playing.” That’s part of what decided me.

 

EJ: What did your parents think when you decided at such a young age to be a professional musician?

            JR: Well, I actually didn’t tell them for a couple of years. I told Mom, “I want to start taking lessons,” and she said, “Great!” So I started taking lessons for awhile. Pretty much my junior year is when I told my parents, “I want to be a musician,” and they were just so against it. My father threatened to not help me pay for college. It was very scary. It was like, “Am I going to be able to do this?” That’s part of the reason he was happy that I got the scholarship to Madison, because that was his alma mater. He was probably hoping I would change my major.

 

EJ: Was he more in favor of you going someplace like the University of Wisconsin as opposed to Eastman?

            JR: Definitely. When I was considering Eastman he said, “There’s this guy at work whose son went to Eastman and now he doesn’t have a job; now he’s on the street playing his trombone” – trying to scare me that way.

 

EJ: Do they feel bad about that now?

            JR: They don’t talk about it. They’re like, “Oh, Julia, that sounded so nice. We’re so proud of you.” It’s almost like it never happened.

 

EJ: Are your parents musical at all?

            JR: No, they’re not. They don’t know much about music at all.

 

EJ: What career do you think your parents envisioned for you? Before you told them?

            JR: Probably science, or engineering, because on my father’s side everyone’s very scientifically oriented.

 

EJ: That’s a very different career path.

            JR: Well, I knew if I went into science I would always wonder if I could have done it (music).

 

EJ: Did your dad keep trying to talk you out of the whole idea even when you were going to college and studying music seriously?

            JR: I think he knew it was kind of pointless. I’m really stubborn, and he knows to just not argue with me when I’ve made up my mind. But when I’d come home from college he’d say things like, “Are you done practicing yet?” You know, they’d want me to stop practicing.

 

EJ: Do you think that make you want to practice even more?

            JR: Oh yeah! (laughs)

 

EJ: Why did you decide on the University of Wisconsin?

            JR: It was the place I felt the most comfortable. Plus they gave me a good scholarship.

 

EJ:  Did you go straight into New World after UW?

            JR: Yes. For three years. I did take lessons during that time. We would have visiting people who’d come and give us two or three lessons and then we’d play a master class. So I got exposure to a lot of good teaching while I was down there.

 

EJ: When did you get Columbus?

            JR: The summer after my final year with New World. It was very lucky, good timing.

 

EJ: So you’ve had a pretty direct career path.

            JR: Yes, I’ve been really lucky. It was like a week before I was leaving to start my masters up at McGill in Canada, and I got the call from Columbus.

 

EJ: You’d auditioned and…

            JR: Yes, I was actually runner-up. The person who won was Shelley Showers. She didn’t get tenure in Cleveland so she auditioned for Columbus as a safety net. Then she auditioned for Philadelphia and she got that. I guess they (Columbus) weren’t even anticipating her taking the job.

 

EJ: How comfortable are you in auditions?

            JR: Well, I used to be very uncomfortable. And I think just the more you do it, the easier it is. Just doing it over and over. It’s like a recital performance. Your first recital you’re shaking in your boots, missing notes… but the more you do it, the more it’s like, “Oh this is not hard – it’s no sweat.”

 

EJ: When did you start to get comfortable taking auditions?

            JR: You want numbers? Probably it wasn’t until audition number thirteen. And that’s when I started advancing, is when I started feeling comfortable.

 

EJ: Before that, could you anticipate when you were going to be nervous, or did it come as a surprise to you?

            JR: I think I pretty much knew. Even now, if I do an audition and it doesn’t go well, it still happens to me. I know ahead of time. It almost feels like I’m detached from my body. Even beforehand, in the green room waiting to go out. It’s just, “This doesn’t feel right.” And when it goes well it’s, “I want to get out there, I want to play, I want to do this audition, I want to show them how great this music is.”

 

EJ: What do you think of screened auditions? Are they harder or easier than unscreened?

            JR: For me it doesn’t matter- if there’s no one out there behind the screen, or if there are 3000 people behind the screen that I can’t see. If you’re concentrating on what you have to do, which is just play the music, it doesn’t matter who is out there. When I’m playing in orchestra, playing well, and when I’m playing auditions, I’m so focused on the music that I don’t care who is out there.

 

EJ: So in a sense you’re playing for yourself?

            JR: It’s almost not for myself… the way I like to think of it is for the sake of the music. “This is what Tchaikovsky wanted this to sound like.” And I’m recreating what Tchaikovsky wanted. I’m not thinking, “Oh, don’t I sound great.” I don’t think like that. I think that’s distracting – as distracting as people watching you.

 

EJ: How did you finance all those auditions?

            JR: New World Symphony. There are good and bad things about that place, but the best thing is having time to practice, and having the cash to do auditions. And they had a very lenient policy of letting you off of orchestra stuff to do auditions.

 

EJ: Your position in Columbus is associate?

            JR: Associate and third, so I’m the workhorse of the section – I’m playing all the time.

 

EJ: How long have you been in the orchestra now?

            JR: Six years.

 

EJ: How many horns are in the core in Columbus?

            JR: Four. We’re working to get it to five.

 

EJ: How many weeks is your season?

            JR: Forty-seven. In four years it’s going up to fifty-two.

 

EJ: Has the orchestra lengthened the season since you’ve been there?

            JR: Yes.

 

EJ: How has that changed attitudes in the orchestra?

            JR: It feels like there’s more of a pride in people’s work. I think maybe once we get to fifty-two (weeks), and the respect that goes with it – not having to collect unemployment for a couple of weeks a year – people might feel more pride in what they’re doing. We just started adding weeks to the season this year. But I notice that we’re playing better – it just seems like everyone’s got a better attitude.

 

EJ: Is it attitude, or just that people are playing together a little bit more?

            JR: I think it’s attitude. I really do. They feel valued. I know I’m happier to be there, knowing that people want good things to come out of the orchestra, and that they’ve got confidence that we’ll be able to afford financially to go to fifty-two weeks.

 

EJ: What are your other interests?

            JR: Well, I’m married, so that’s like a whole new thing. I like to spend time with my husband.

 

EJ: How long have you been married?

            JR: It’ll be two years in five days.

 

EJ: Does he play?

            JR: He plays violin as an amateur musician.

 

EJ: So he knows about music.

            JR: He does, his brother was a musician for a time.

 

EJ: Are you planning to have children?

            JR: Yes, I am. But in order for me to do that, I pretty much have to say, “Okay, this is as far as I’m going to get in my playing, at least for five years or so, until the kid grows up and goes to school.

 

EJ: Since your husband is not a full-time musician, you don’t have the leeway with scheduling that two musicians have. It seems to me it would be hard to keep your career from being lost in the shuffle of having children…

            JR: It’s a fight, even now, and I can see how when we have kids it’s going to be a real struggle. I’m kind of thinking of ways to keep the career going, like possibly having a babysitter or daycare. You know, two normal people with 9-5 jobs give their kids to daycare. If I’m going to be able to practice as much as I need to, maybe that’s what I’m going to have to do.

As it is now, I’ve kind of modified my schedule to be with my husband anyway. Before I met him, before I was thinking I wanted to get married, I’d just practice at 10 or 11 o’clock at night – who cares? But now I try to get it all done before 5:00. I practice my time before 5:00, and after 5:00 I’m with him. He has a 9-5 job as a computer programmer. so I think I’m kind of settling into that routine already. And if I decide, when I have kids, to get daycare, I’d probably try to do all my practicing before 5:00, then get the kid, and be Ms. Mom – family time after that.

 

EJ: Do you think you’re planning your career differently than you would if you were a man in the same situation?

            JR: Absolutely. I mean, if I want to have children that’s got to be the number one thing in my life. If a man decides to have children with his wife he can just keep taking auditions. I mean, like it or not, the woman is usually the one who takes care of the children, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. That’s just how it is. And he can keep going and going, as far as he can get in his career, but I think once a woman decides to have children…  She’s restrained in her time, doesn’t have as much time to practice as she did before, and stress.

 

EJ: Why do you think that imbalance persists? I mean, say you’re in the greatest orchestra in the world and get paid $500, 000 a year, so you need to practice and go play your gigs, and your husband doesn’t need to work because you have plenty of money. Would you still feel that you were primarily responsible for care-giving for the children?

            JR: I think it depends on the attitude of the man that you’re married to. Most men I know would not be willing to give up their career to raise kids. It’s a double standard.

 

EJ: So basically we’re saying that men in society are still growing up with that mindset.

            JR: I think so. And I think women are just wired to want to take care of children. If my husband was willing to give up his career to take care of kids I don’t know if I would feel comfortable. I’d feel almost like, “Who’s the guy here?” I don’t think I would be comfortable.

 

 

EJ: When you were in high school, were there many other girls playing horn?

            JR: There were all girls. No guys – well, actually one. But out of the eight or so horn players that I knew in high school, all of us were girls.

 

 

EJ: Why do you think women have been so much more accepted as horn players than they have on the other brass instruments?

            JR: It’s almost a feminine-looking instrument. It’s a feminine sounding instrument, because it’s not so “in your face” masculine. I hate hearing myself right now, with all these adjectives, but it can sound very feminine. It can sound very masculine. I think it’s more a dual-natured sort of instrument, so that might be more attractive to women.

 

EJ: What was the balance of horn players at UW when you were there?

            JR: I think there were more women. I think it was probably 60/40. I didn’t even know about sexism or anything, until all of a sudden… Probably New World was the first time I had seen any sign of it. It seems like the further you get professionally, the (more) of it there is.

 

EJ: What evidence did you see then? What situation made you aware of it?

            JR: It was basically a conductor. His lack of giving the good parts to the women in the section. There were three men and two women there my first two years, and whenever this certain conductor was there, he would always give the big parts to this one guy. Either this one guy or the other guy. It was very consistent. We could predict, and we saw it in other sections, too. It wasn’t just the horn players.

 

EJ: Have you ever had someone say to you, “You’re playing that like a girl.”

            JR: Yes I have.

 

EJ: What did it mean to you?

            JR: It kind of meant that I was just not giving it a hundred percent, that I was just kind of la-di-da, doing whatever I wanted, and not committing. And maybe playing too soft.

 

EJ: What was your reaction to it?

            JR: I learned to play really loud! I tried to learn to play in such a way that no one would ever say that again. And what’s so bad about saying that you play like a girl? I am a girl. But for some reason it’s an insult… I’ve got to say that I’ve only been told that by people who wanted it to be an insult, so I think that had a lot to do with it. I mean my teachers have never said that, conductors have never said that.

 

EJ: Who would you consider your role models as a horn player?

            JR: I didn’t know much until I started taking private lessons. Before that I just enjoyed playing. I learned a lot from my teacher – she lent me recordings of Dennis Brain, Barry Tuckwell, Hermann Baumann. Then I was at a summer music camp at St. Olaf College during high school and they had this music library. I’d go in during breaks and discovered a magazine about horn, The Horn Call. I started learning about people that way and that sparked my interest to listen to more recordings.

            Role models. Some are men and some are women. Of course Gail Williams – I think she’s pretty much every woman’s role model who plays horn. Another one is John Zirbel. I think he’s just a fantastic player. Bill Caballero, because he has this heroic side of his playing that’s just incredible. Those are the three I can think of now.

 

EJ: What about mentors?

            JR: To be honest I think I’m pretty self-motivated. I guess I didn’t really have anybody until I got married, and my husband is my supporter now.

 

 

EJ: What other ways do you think that gender has played, or is playing a role in your career? Have there been situations where you’ve felt that you were treated better  because you were a woman?

            JR: I don’t really think so. I sometimes feel a little strange vibe that I know if I was a guy I wouldn’t feel, but I think that would happen in any profession. I think it might be social.

 

EJ: There seems to be a real dichotomy in attitudes about the role of gender in this or any profession. Either, a) gender doesn’t matter at all, or b) it’s had a huge influence (generally for the worse) on life/career. Any comments on this division?

            JR: To tell you the truth, I think a lot of people want to blame something if their career doesn’t go the way they want it to go. Hopefully I won’t offend a bunch of people by saying it, but maybe even if they were men they wouldn’t have made it very far. They need something to blame, and I don’t think anyone should blame their sex for how far, or not far, they’ve gotten. You know, if you just practice your butt off, the cream is going to rise to the top. You can’t blame – you have to take responsibility. It might’ve been different at one time, but for me today, and in working on my career for the past few years, it doesn’t seem like it was ever a problem. Hopefully those times are over.

 

EJ: What’s your situation like in the Columbus Symphony? Are you the only woman in the horn section?

            JR: Me, and the fourth horn are the only women in the brass section.

 

EJ: How is that?

            JR: I’m glad I’ve got a buddy there. It makes me feel a lot more comfortable. When I joined the orchestra I was the only woman in the brass, and it felt a little strange – it felt like I couldn’t really become friends with someone without there being some sort of impropriety there. I feel a little more comfortable when there’s another woman sitting next to me in the section.